Dum Pendebat Filius

A sniff in the kortevar, that what you cry for, yeled? A prert up the cull, a prang on the dumpendebat?

Dank Hagny, Out Of His Depth

Our Internet friend Hank Dagny has outdone himself with a stunningly ignorant post entitled “Can Muslims Be Good Americans? No, They Cannot.” He found a “questionnaire” floating around in some fetid backwater of the Web and, never one to waste a good piece of flotsam, posted it approvingly at his site without even bothering to wash it off first.

He invites his readers to “please tell me where this questionnaire I found on the internet is wrong.” Not surprisingly, his “questionnaire” is wrong every single time it has a chance to be wrong about something.

Here are the ludicrous claims made in the “questionnaire,” in order. All these claims purport to answer the question “Can a Muslim be a good American?”

1. Allah The Moon God

“Theologically – no. A Muslim [sic] allegiance is to Allah, the moon God of Arabia.”

We’ve been over this before, at least twice, on this very blog: see 28 June 2005 and 5 September 2007. The simple fact is that the Arabic word allah means “God.” Just like the French word dieu, the Spanish word dios, the German word Gott, etc, etc.

Like it or not, Muslims worship the same God that Jews and Christians worship. Even Daniel Pipes has the intellectual honesty not to pretend otherwise, for crying out loud.

For the “moon god” silliness, you can look at the Chick tract “ALLAH HAD NO SON.” (Yes, that’s right, H.D. — you’re getting your theology out of a fucking Chick tract.)

Two panels from Chick tract depicting Muslims at prayer

2. Diners Club, American Express, Other Religions Regretfully Not Accepted

“Religiously – no. No other religion is accepted by Allah except Islam. (Koran 2:256)”

Here’s the verse in question:

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejects false deities and believes in God has grasped a firm handhold which will never break. God is the Hearer, the Knower.

Sorry, but it’s quite a stretch to read this verse and think it means “No other religion is accepted by Allah except Islam.”

Here are some questions to ask yourself about this claim, if you think that’s what it does mean: What, exactly, does it mean if God does not “accept” other religions? Does it mean all non-Muslims are doomed to the fires of hell? Does it mean they’re infidels who need to die today? Does it mean they ought to convert? Does it mean God just ignores them?

Do you get answers to any of this from that Koranic verse?

3. Real American Scripture

“Scripturally – no. A Muslim’s allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Koran.”

The so-called five pillars of Islam (“faith, prayer, concern for the needy, self-purification, and the pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able”) do not strike me as particularly anti-American. Am I missing something here?

How is this statement different from saying “A Jew’s allegiance is to Judaism and the Torah”?

How is it different from saying “A Christian’s allegiance is to Christianity and the New Testament”?

The biggest question of all: What the hell do “scriptural” questions have to do with one’s ability to be a “good American”?

4. International Geographic

“Geographically – no. A Muslim’s allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.”

Meaning what? All billion or so of the world’s Muslims are secretly loyal only to Saudi Arabia? This is just silly.

5. When In Doubt, Start Making Shit Up

The “questionnaire” is running out of steam, so its anonymous author starts in with the ugly lies…

Socially – no. Islam forbids a Muslim to make friends with Christians or Jews.

This, readers, is nothing but a fucking lie, plain and simple. I challenge Hank Dagny, who cut-n-pasted this onto his website, to present any evidence he can come up with in support of this nasty, ugly lie.

6. Take Me To Your Leader

“Spiritually – no. A Muslim must submit to the mullah (spiritual leader) who teaches the annihilation of Israel and the destruction of the Great Satan, the United States.”

The anonymous author, and those who credulously re-post his ignorant foolishness, are completely out of their depth now, and it shows. Anyone who doesn’t even know the difference between a mullah and an imam has no claim to be taken seriously on the subject of Islam.

(To be sure, we’re talking about Hank Dagny, who famously wrote that “these [Iranians] are Shi’ite MUSLIMS, who are allies of al-Qaeda and sympathetic to Bin Laden and the Taliban,” so what do you expect?)

Notice also the lunatic implication that all Muslim “spiritual leaders” march in lockstep with their calls for “the annihilation of Israel and the destruction of… the United States.”

7. Why Johnny Can’t Read

“Domestically – no. A Muslim is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Koran 4:34).”

“Men are the maintainers of [qawwaamuna 'ala] women, with what God has made some of them to excel others and with what they spend out of their wealth. So the good women are obedient, guarding the unseen as God has guarded. And (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the beds and chastise them. So if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely God is ever Exalted, Great.”

8. Socrates is Mortal, Thus He Believes the Bible is Corrupt

“Intellectually – no. Because a Muslim cannot accept the US Constitution since it is based on Judeo-Christian principles and Muslims believes [sic] the Bible is corrupt.”

Syllogism:

  1. The US Constitution is “based on Judeo-Christian principles.”
  2. “Muslims believes” [sic] that the Bible is corrupt.
  3. Ergo, a Muslim “cannot accept the US Constitution.”

A halfway-bright sixth-grader could poke holes in this sorry excuse for reasoning, readers.

Even if we ignore the fallacy of petitio principii and accept the lie that the rest of this assertion rests upon (i.e. “the Constitution is based on Judeo-Christian principles”), the assertion still doesn’t make sense. It seems to strongly imply that belief in the Bible is a necessary prerequisite for “acceptance” of the Constitution. Once again, this is just silliness.

The question of “corruption” is something the anonymous author has misunderstood. Muslims believe that the Koran is the literal word of God — that is, God dictated the Koran to the prophet Muhammad, in Classical Arabic, and the text of the Koran is God’s own words, transcribed verbatim. On the other hand, the Bible does not, of course, purport to be the literal word of God, but was written by human beings, and thus its text could be subject to “corruption” as human hands alter the word of God. Most people know this.

9. Dictatorial or Autocratic

And the final plank in the idiot platform: Philosophically – no. Islam, Muhammad and the Koran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is a [sic] either dictatorial or autocratic.

No evidence or proof, just a series of angry assertions.

Hey, remember the verse that was cited above (Surah 2, verse 256)? Remember what it said?

There is no compulsion in religion.

Readers, the anonymous author has refuted himself.

Followup

Hank Dagny followed up his post with a successful attempt to dig himself even deeper into his hole:

Picture of Larry the Cable GuyLet’s get our bearings here people; IF you [sic] not an American first, you cannot be the religion [sic] of your choice. You will be the religion [sic] of your master – or will meet your God in short order. If liberals have their way and communism wins out – you will not have the right to practice any religion – except Hillary Praise.

[...]

When push comes to shove, your Muslim buddies may not swing the sword, but they will point you out or hold you down when there is enough of them around to ‘get’er done’.

Islam must ‘Americanize’ or one of us is going to have to go.

Hey Muslims, you want to pray five times a day, wash your feet, not eat BBQ, stone and butcher your women, breed hate, blow up your own people and kill everyone who is not Muslim in your country? Fine with me.

Just don’t bring it to my shore and don’t kill my countrymen.

Filed under: Political by dumpendebat at 2007/10/24 - 22:22

16 Comments

  1. Hank Dagny:

    You left out the best part. True liberals – as followers of communism – cannot be Americans either.

    Illegal aliens using our services and sending money back to Mexico with no intention of being Americans are another problem.

    If your immigrants don’t assimilate, you lose your nation. Buy the book “America Alone” by Mark Steyn. Do yourself a favor Dump. Read it.

  2. Hank Dagny:

    Your rebuttal post was excellent. I will respond in the morning. Thanks, Dump.

  3. Hank Dagny:

    You lost 6 to 3. Thanks for the time and effort.

  4. dumpendebat:

    I guess linking to your post or (sending a trackback ping) would have been too much to expect, huh?

    Nice try, though.

  5. Hanque:

    Here are my thoughts on these posts. I’m tired as shit and I’m going to bed now.

    1. Allah The Moon God

    “Muslims worship the same God that Jews and Christians worship.”

    1. I look at it like this: Some democrats or republicans would look at members of their own parties and say that in fact, they are not actual members of the party because their idealogy differs so much that they are members of the party in name only. For example, both Log Cabin Republicans and Pro-Life Democrats are frequently pilloried and lambasted by members of their own party. They may receive little or no funding or support, yet they each claim to be part of the same political party that may willfully disenfranchise them.

    This can be likened to a claim that Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same god. Some may claim this, but functinally speaking, there can be such wide discrepancies between the practiced beliefs, customs, morals and ethics as to render the similarities moot. Just because one says they have the same rooted beliefs doesn’t make it so.

    This can be compounded by the fact that in each of these religious communities it can reasonably be argued that differing sects within the same religion may not even have a basic, common concept of the divine and/or its properties and attributes.

    Furthermore, it can be reasonably argued that the god of Islam is a composite of Allat, Uzza, Manat, the god of Christianity, and probably influenced by the Hindu, Zoroastrian and even Buddhist beliefs. The derth of historical knowledge from the Arabian peninsula is startling. There was, and is, a concerted effort to wipe out all information and references to pre-Islamic belief and practices and the historical record has suffered terribly because of this. So if someone says that Muslims are worshipping a moon god, and if there is legititmate sociological or anthropological evidence to support the claim, I don’t necessarily find it wrong.

    2. Diners Club, American Express, Other Religions Regretfully Not Accepted

    What is NOT addressed by Dumpendebat is a principle found in most Islamic jurisprudence, law and practice that does NOT accept Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, Bahaism or any other faith that is not from the Semitic traditions (Judaism, Christianity or Islam.) In many Islamic countries, it is against the law to outwardly show religious symbols that are Islamic or “of the Book.”

    Additionally, Dumpendebat does not cite the translated copy of the Koran which he references in his post. It is imperative that any reader should understand that translations of the Koran vary significantly in meaning, and the translations in widest circulation are funded by intolerant, probably Saudi zealots. I would hasten to guess that Dumpendebat’s translation does not originate from one of those texts. As an example, this same verse can be translated as “There is no compulsion in matter of faith. Distinct is the way of guidance now from error. He who turns away from the forces of evil and believes in God, will surely hold fast to a handle that is strong and unbreakable, for God hears all and knows every thing.” Subtle differences, but differences nonetheless.

    The “no compulsion in religion” motto is frequently touted as a mark of tolerance. However, in practical terms, there is and has been significant compulsion to convet to Islam in the historical and current record. For example, it is against the rules of the faith for a non-Muslim man to marry a Muslim woman. Therefore, the man is forced to convert if he wants to marry the woman. Without conversion, under Islamic law, offspring are not entitled to inheritance and many other common rights (schooling, state funded medicine, etc.) Secondarily, in a community where Muslims occupy the majority, it is largely impermissible for a non-Muslim to have a full leadership role. So if one aspires to be at the top, there is a glass ceiling if one is a non-Muslim living in a Muslim community. Furthermore, under the rule of Islamic law, there is a difference between the taxation rates among Muslims and non-Muslims living in the Islamic state. And, in Islamic history, access to schools and literacy were largely predicated on faith. If one was not Muslim, schooling was pretty much out of reach for most of the population. Adding more, for purposes of this argument, in most of the Muslim world, slavery was never outlawed until the advent of empowered, secular ideology. However, if one converted to Islam, one could no longer be held in bondage. Lastly, in most Islamic countries, it is illegal for Muslims to convert to another faith.

    The list can go on, but the point I’m trying to make is this: Seldomly there are or were forced conversions. But like in the U.S. financial and social systems, if one does not have good credit, one’s ability to succeed and prosper is significantly restricted. One is not required by law to have a credit card or a good credit rating. But try to imagine getting a home loan, a car or air travel without it. In that context, credit becomes a compulsory requirement to succeed in the social system; and a good credit rating is not a compulsory legal requirement.

    3. Real American Scripture

    How is this statement different from saying “A Jew’s allegiance is to Judaism and the Torah”?

    How is it different from saying “A Christian’s allegiance is to Christianity and the New Testament”?

    I do not know enough about the Torah to argue on this point. But I do know that most new testament exegites argue that the verse “…give to Ceasar that which is Ceasar’s…” means there can be a separation between faith and law.

    While a minority of Islamic exegites and scholars argue the same point in Islamic thought, the difference is that in Islam, it is a tangental argument that is not firmly rooted in the Qur’an and even less so in the Hadith or Sunnah. There is no clear differentiation between the state and religion in most Islamic societies. Therefore, practically speaking, for most Muslims, loyalty lies first with religion, and a distant second to the state.

    It is for this very reason that there is no legal separation between religion and state in most of the Muslim world. It is why each state in the Muslim world clearly notes Islam as the official religion of the state. For most Muslims, there is no practical problem in mingling religion with government, and of course the religion controlling the state must be Islam. If one spends time in the Islamic world, this is readily apparent in the application of social law and observation of social customs. There is varying degrees of religious dictates in the laws of the land, but they are there nonetheless.

    5. When In Doubt, Start Making Shit Up
    The “questionnaire” is running out of steam, so its anonymous author starts in with the ugly lies…

    Socially – no. Islam forbids a Muslim to make friends with Christians or Jews.

    “This, readers, is nothing but a fucking lie, plain and simple. I challenge Hank Dagny, who cut-n-pasted this onto his website, to present any evidence he can come up with in support of this nasty, ugly lie.”

    Dagny is probably relying upon some of the following verses of the Qur’an for this one:

    2:120 – The Jews and Christians will never be pleased with you until you follow their way.

    3:28 Those who believe should not take unbelievers as their friends in preference to those who believe and whoever does so should have no (expectations) of God unless to safeguard yourselves against them.

    3:118 Oh believers, do not make others except your own people your confidants. They will spare no effort to ruin you: They surely desire your annihilation. Hate is on their tongues, and what they hide in their hearts is worse. We have shown you the signes if you have sense. 119. Just think! You hold them as your friends but they do not, even though you believe in all the scriptures.

    4:89 (this verse is a reference to non-believers and “hypocrites.”) They wish you to become disbelievers as they are , so that you should come like them. Therefore hold them not as friends until they go out of their homes in the way of God….

    4:139 Do those who take unbelievers as their friends in preference to the faithful seek power from them? But all power belongs to God. (4:140) You have been commanded in the Book that whensoever you hear God’s messages denied or derided, do not sit in that company until they begin talking of other things, or you will be no different from them. Indeed God will put the hypocrites and infidels together in Hell.

    4:144 Oh believers, do not hold unbelievers as friends in preference to the faithful. Do you want to proffer a clear proof of your own guilt before God?

    5:13 (re: Jews)…You will always hear of treachery on their part except that of a few. But forbear and forgive them.

    5:51 O believers, do not hold Jews and Christians as your allies. They are allies of on another; and anyone who makes them his friends is surely one of them; and God does not guide the unjust.

    5:55 Your only friends are God and His messenger, and those who believe and are steadfast in devotion, who pay the zakat and bow in homage (before God). 5:56 And those who take God and His prophet and the faithful as their friends are indeed men of God, who will surely be victorious. 5:57 O believers, do not make friends with those who mock and make a sport of your faith, who were given the Book before you, and with unbelievers; and fear God if you truly believe; 5:58 (Nor make friends with) those who, when you call (the faithful) to prayer, make mock of it and jest, because they do not understand.

    5:66 If they had followed the teaching of the Torah and the Gospel, and what has been sent down to them by their Lord, they would surely have enjoyed (blessings) from the heavens above and the earth below their feet. Some among them are moderate, but evil is what most of them do!

    9:23 O you who believe, do not hold your fathers and brothers as friends if they hold disbelief more dear than faith; and those of you who do so are iniquitous.

    9:29 Fight those people of the Book who do not beleive in God and the Last Day, who do not prohibit what God and His Apostle have forbidden, nor accept divine law, until all of them pay the Jizziya in submission.

    9:123 O believers, fight the unbelievers around you, and let them realise that you are firm: Remember, God is with those who are pious and obedient to Him.

    I don’t have time to go into the Hadith record, but if you’re interested in exploring this issue there’s plenty to read in Bukhari and Muslim and others.

    9. Dictatorial or Autocratic

    I find little to dispute in Dagny’s argument here. I’ve addressed the compulsion in religion verse above. In my readings of different translations of the Qur’an, I do not find an abundance of tolerance or social enlightenment. In my experiences in the Islamic world, I do not see an abundance of freedom of expression or religion. As stated, in the Islamic world, most or all governments have designated Islam as the state religion. On its face, this is intolerant and anti-democratic.

  6. Dave Fourputt:

    Dump,

    I have to admit you nailed Hank to the wall on this topic.

    Keep writing!!! :-)

  7. dumpendebat:

    Thanks, Hanque, for your well-thought-out and informative comments. You have given me plenty to think about.

    I am surprised that there is indeed some scriptural support for the assertion that “Muslims are forbidden from befriending Jews/Christians.” I will take your suggestion and hit the books some more. Thanks for schooling me on that topic. Although Hank Dagny did not manage to provide any evidence whatsoever, you stepped up and did it for him. So I stand corrected, and now I regret my intemperate choice of words (“fucking lie”).

  8. dumpendebat:

    Thanks, Fourputt, for your words of support.

  9. kk:

    You are an Ass hole

    why you post this offensive picture

    who told you Arabs worship the moon God you ingnorant

    I bet you do this on a purpose

    God Allah is one God that all religions calling for

  10. Stram:

    For Christ’s sake, KK, read the fucking post instead just looking at the picture, moron!

    Dumpendebat ripped to shreds one the biggest and dumbest fucking lying chickenhawk punks on the planet in defending your stupid ass.

    I still laugh my ass off Filius when I think of that dumbass writing how the ‘Iranians are allies of al-Qaeda.’ He’s still dumb as hell, too. Not very ‘intellegent’! LOL

    And KK, Dumpendebat is too much of a gentlemen to call you a fucking idiot. But I’m not, you fucking idiot!

  11. dumpendebat:

    I was giving KK the benefit of the doubt, as I suspect it’s simply a language issue — I think KK reads English with difficulty.

    Of course, HD also has trouble reading English, and I never noticed it slowed him down much!

  12. Stram:

    Oh, one more thing. I see Dank today wrote about “three groups, the freeloaders, the ignorant and the stupid”.

    Funny, he fits into all three. We already know he’s definitely, both ignorant and stupid. But what he doesn’t tell his readers over at Liar’s Quorum is he hasn’t contributed to society since the Bush Era. He’s a ‘freeloader’, too. He’s lived as a freeloader since last October when the man he voted for twice took his job away. He’s living off the taxpayers, sucking off the public trough but still presenting himself falsely as an independent, and self-sufficient man.

    While he’s at it, maybe he can tell us who’s paying for his health care too. Well, he won’t tell you that taxpayers are paying for that too.

    He’s still a pathetic hypocrite, and always will be.

  13. Stram:

    Brother, you have to start posting again.

  14. Yahoouj:

    Really good work about this website was done. Keep trying more – thanks!

  15. Matthew McFadden:

    You sure do cuss a lot. I pray that you will accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.

  16. dumpendebat:

    Bite my dick, you sanctimonious asshole.

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